Over the past 8 years, I’ve been honored to share the Word of God through this station. I’m grateful to Brother Eli for having me, and I want to express that up front—his generosity and elder status are not forgotten.

Recently, however, 5/5/25 Restoration Hour, a sermon was aired in response to my studies on the devil, satan, and serpent, where he built a strawman version of my study—then tried to knock it down with dozens of verses used out of context and loaded with traditional assumptions and the typical 2SL response (which I would have given myself as a 2SL’er). He spent an entire hour attempting to discredit a study he never actually examined (this is happening with a large % of those commenting about me/my study).   Folks, 5/10/25, Eli did it again on Restoration Hour, so at the very bottom is my rebuttal for part 2 of his Friday night show.

I didn’t:

  • Deny the existence of evil, angels, or judgment.
  • Teach “everything is a metaphor” without context.
  • Or make blanket statements with no cross-reference.
  • Deny supernatural entities or events.
  • Become an Emry follower, or non-seedline follower

 

While I welcome healthy discussion, I must respectfully clarify that many of the points raised in that episode (and by practically EVERYBODY who disagrees without examining) do not accurately represent what I’ve said, found, and documented and provided with an abundance of Scripture. This rebuttal is not meant to cause division, but to ensure that those sincerely seeking truth can examine both sides honestly. I’ve been speaking with Eli, and many others, and like any ‘knee-jerk’ reaction, it takes time to simmer down and absorb the info. Of course people are going to feel like I’m attacking their faith/beliefs!! I’m not! I am excited, amazed, grateful, and blessed to be able to share what has been revealed to me with you guys. Eight good years here on EFR, but now I’m in the doghouse because many of you can’t let me show you something more than the GENETICS AND joo bashing 2SL C.I. message??? I keep saying, you don’t have to abandon your devil to learn some more amazing things about God’s Word.

You’ve heard what Eli said on his show. He, and so many others, are misrepresenting me by not examining the work and are incorrectly presuming things. Just glancing over selected verses won’t cut it! I would like to show you what I am trying to share. Of course, if people would just take some time to GO THROUGH MY STUDY, or at least listen to the Series SUMMARY, or just RELAX and follow me through the series this spring and summer and into fall, then all this chaos and misunderstandings can be avoided.

 

My study has MUCH MORE info, explanation, cross-refs, history, literary devices, etc. This post is just to quickly give a taste of what I am actually saying/sharing.

📜 Verse-by-Verse Rebuttals to Eli’s Claims

Verse Eli’s Interpretation Brother Hebert’s Rebuttal (Symbolic/Metaphoric, poetic, literary devices, allegories, historical, characteristics, roles, etc.)
Matt 17:11 (Gehenna) Gehenna = real hell (symbol for torment) Gehenna (G1067) was the Valley of Hinnom, a real place of burning garbage and disgrace. Used symbolically in Jeremiah 7:31–33. Jesus used it to describe covenantal judgment on Jerusalem (Matt 23:33). No mention of eternal torture.
Rev 12:9 The dragon is literal Satan, cast down from heaven ‘Dragon’ symbolizes a persecuting power (cf. Rome/Herod). ‘Devil’ (G1228) = slanderer, and ‘Satan’ (G4567) = adversary—both roles, not entities. Visionary prophecy, not literal (Rev. 1:1).
Rev 12:4 A third of stars = fallen angels ‘Stars’ symbolize rulers (Gen. 37:9; Dan. 8:10). The verse is symbolic of leaders of Israel being cast down during judgment (Luke 21:25). Not celestial rebellion.
Luke 10:18 Satan literally fell from heaven like lightning The phrase ‘like lightning’ is simile. Refers to Jesus seeing the fall of corrupt power as His disciples succeeded (Luke 10:17). Not a pre-earth celestial event.
Job 1:7 Satan is literal, speaks with God ‘The Satan’ is a legal accuser (not a name). The book is Hebrew poetry. See also Zech. 3:1–2; Num. 22:22 (angel as adversary). Literary structure, not literal biography.
Isa 14:12–15 Lucifer (Halel) is a pre-Adamic fallen angel Context: king of Babylon (Isa. 14:4). Halel = morning star = boastful ruler. Parallels fall of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 4). No pre-creation context in Hebrew.
Rev 12:7–9 Michael fought literal Satan in heaven ‘War in heaven’ = power struggle. ‘Heaven’ = authority. Michael = God’s human messengers (cf. Dan. 12:1). The vision depicts earthly judgment on corrupt powers.
2 Pet 2:4 Angels sinned and were cast into literal hell ‘Angels’ (G32) = messengers. Context: false teachers. ‘Tartarus’ used figuratively. ‘Chains of darkness’ = spiritual blindness and judgment, not physical bonds. See Jude 6.
Ezek 28:1–19 King of Tyre was a godlike fallen being No angel is mentioned. This is a lament for a human king (v2). ‘Eden’ = poetic metaphor. He is compared to Adam (fall through pride), not a pre-existent angel.
John 8:44 Jews are literal children of the devil Devil (G1228) = slanderer. Jesus is speaking of spiritual resemblance, not literal lineage. Cain = murderer (1 John 3:12), and this is a character judgment, not a supernatural origin claim.
Verse Eli’s Interpretation Brother Hebert’s Rebuttal
Rev 20:2 Devil bound 1,000 years = literal demonic restraint Symbolic: Devil = slanderous system; “bound” = loss of power, e.g., usury restriction era. Compare spiritual “binding” language in Matt. 12:29.
Jude 1:6 Angels left heaven, chained in darkness “Angels” = rebellious human messengers. “Chains of darkness” = figurative judgment, like Korah (Num. 16); see also 2 Pet 2:4.
1 Pet 5:8 Devil = real being, roaring like a lion “Adversary” = legal/religious opponents; “roaring lion” mimics Judah (Gen. 49:9). Symbol of persecution, not a demon.
2 Cor 11:14 Satan appears as angel of light Satan = false apostles (v13). Light = deceitful righteousness. No supernatural being implied.
Rev 12:10 Accuser = literal devil thrown down “Accuser” = slanderous men (see Rev. 2:9–10); being “cast down” means loss of authority.
John 12:31 Satan is ruler of this world, now cast out “Ruler” = corrupt authorities (cf. Acts 4:26–28); “cast out” = spiritual victory via the cross (Col. 2:15).
Matt 12:26 / Mark 3:23 Satan has kingdom = literal personal devil Jesus uses a metaphor to expose Pharisaic hypocrisy. “Satan” = adversarial power structure.
2 Cor 4:4 God of this world = Satan blinding minds Theos = ruling authority. Yahweh blinds willful disobedience (Isa. 6:9–10; Rom. 11:8), not a devil.
1 John 5:19 Evil One = literal Satan ruling the world “Evil one” = collective wicked system of rebellion. Compare with Eph. 2:2 (“spirit at work in disobedience”).
Rev 12:13 Dragon = Satan literally chasing the church Dragon = persecuting empire (e.g., Rome); Woman = faithful Israel. Prophetic symbolism (Rev. 12:1).
Verse Eli’s Interpretation Brother Hebert’s Rebuttal
Matt 25:41 Eternal fire for the devil and his angels ‘Devil’ = slanderers; ‘his angels’ = followers of deception. Fire = divine judgment (Jer 23:29; Heb 12:29), not a literal hell. See Matt 13:40–42.
1 Tim 3:6 Devil’s condemnation = a literal Satan ‘Devil’ = slander (same Greek word used of people in 1 Tim 3:11; 2 Tim 3:3). Warning: pride leads to disgrace and reproach.
Jude 1:9 Michael disputes with Satan over Moses’ body Cites Jewish tradition (cf. Zech 3:1). Devil = accuser. Michael refrains from judgment—lesson in humility, not doctrine of a literal Satan.
Rev 9:1 A fallen angel given the key to the bottomless pit ‘Star’ = symbolic of a fallen leader or messenger (Dan 8:10; Rev 1:20). ‘Key’ = authority (Isa 22:22), not a literal angel with keys.
Zech 3:2 Satan rebuked in heaven = supernatural devil ‘Satan’ = legal adversary (cf. Num 22:22). This is a prophetic courtroom vision of human accusers opposing Joshua the High Priest.
1 Peter 3:22 Angels and powers = supernatural beings ‘Angels’ = messengers (including humans, Rev 2–3). ‘Powers’ subdued by Christ (Col 2:15) = worldly and religious authorities.
Mark 12:25 Angels are literal celestial persons True angels are real, but this says nothing about “fallen” ones. Jesus uses angels as a type of glorified beings—not demons or Satan.
Eph 6:12 Spiritual wickedness = literal devils ‘Principalities and powers’ = corrupt human rulers (Rom 13:1; Titus 3:1). Spiritual wickedness = moral depravity in high positions.
John 8:44 Devil is father of wicked people ‘Father’ = metaphor for influence (John 1:13; 1 John 3:10). Cain = prototype of rebellion, not literal offspring of Satan.
2 Thess 1:7 Jesus comes with literal supernatural angels ‘Angels’ = God’s messengers (Mal 2:7; Rev 2–3), not necessarily supernatural. Symbolic of divine judgment through human or divine means.
Verse Eli’s Interpretation Brother Hebert’s Rebuttal
1 John 5:19 The whole world lies in the power of a literal evil being (Satan). “Evil one” = ungodly systems/rulers (Gal 1:4; John 17:15). The “world” (kosmos) refers to corrupt societal order.
Matt 18:10 Angels of children are literal supernatural beings. Guardian angels = metaphor for divine protection (Ps 91:11; Heb 1:14). No evidence of assigned celestial beings.
Luke 10:18 Jesus saw Satan literally fall from heaven. “I saw Satan fall” = prophetic vision of downfall (Isa 14:12; Rev 18:10). Lightning = sudden collapse, not literal fall.
Heb 1:7 Angels are supernatural wind/flame beings. Citing Ps 104:4—poetic metaphor. God’s messengers are powerful and energetic, not literal elements.
Matt 22:30 Angels in heaven = real celestial beings. Yes, but this verse speaks of resurrected saints becoming like angels—spiritually—not proof of fallen angel doctrine.
John 1:51 Angels ascend/descend on Jesus = literal beings. Allusion to Jacob’s ladder (Gen 28:12). Symbolizes divine connection via Christ (John 14:6; Heb 1:1–2).
Mark 3:23–26 Satan has a kingdom = real person. Parable language. “Kingdom” = realm of deception or corrupt authority (Matt 12:24; John 8:44).
Rev 15:1 Seven angels = supernatural beings bringing plagues. “Sign in heaven” = symbolic vision (Rev 12:1, 12:3). The angels represent messengers of judgment—could be humans or symbolic agents.
1 Chr 21:1 Satan stood against Israel = literal Satan. 2 Sam 24:1 says God moved David. “Satan” = adversary—could be a human counselor or inner pride (James 1:14).
Jude 1:6 Angels left estate = literal fallen angels chained. “Angels” = human messengers/rebels (cf. 2 Pet 2:4). “Chains of darkness” = symbolic for judgment, separation from truth (Prov 5:22).
2 Cor 12:2 Paul’s vision proves heaven is literal and peopled with angels. Paul himself says “whether in the body, I do not know.” This was a spiritual revelation—not literal travel (Acts 10:10).
Luke 17:24 Return of Christ like lightning = supports real heaven/Satan. “Lightning” = rapid and clear judgment (Matt 24:27). No connection to proving literal Satan or cosmic geography.

My approach when I researched and compiled my Devil series study:

  • Carefully examined each Greek and Hebrew term (e.g., diabolos, satanas, nachash, ophis),
  • Recontextualized each passage based on its literary style, audience, and surrounding text,
  • Offered alternate historical and prophetic meanings, especially in books like Revelation, Job, and Isaiah,
  • And consistently backed up claims with supporting Scripture.

My study addresses all the questions, because I HAD THEM TOO, so if people would just look, they see:

  • Why satan in Job acts like a prosecuting attorney under God’s control—not an enemy of God.
  • Why Revelation 12 is symbolic, matching Old Testament imagery of Israel, Michael, and political conflict—not cosmic rebellion.
  • Why Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are judgment oracles against real kings—not ancient fallen angels.

Closing Thoughts

This study is not meant to attack tradition/2SL for the sake of being different, nor to stir up unnecessary controversy. Rather, it’s meant to clarify truth from assumption and remove confusion from what has been taken for granted for centuries.

If you disagree, that’s okay. I only ask that you be willing to search the Scriptures (Acts 17:11), test all things (1Thess. 5:21), and consider whether the Bible itself teaches a supernatural devil—or if the devil is actually us, when we lie, deceive, rebel, or oppose the truth of God.

Let the Word speak.

With respect and sincerity,
Brother Hebert

The Whole deal/docs/charts. links/audios: DEVIL SATAN SERPENT https://www.thinkoutsidethebeast.com/devil-satan-serpent/

At least listen to the series SUMMARY https://archive.org/download/devil-satan-serpent/DEVIL%20SATAN%20SERPENT%20Series%20SUMMARY.mp3

How about some quick ref charts?

QUICK REFERENCE CHARTS

SERPENT Chart – https://www.ageoflaodicea.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/SERPENT-Chart.pdf

DEVIL Chart – https://www.ageoflaodicea.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/DEVIL-Chart.pdf

SATAN Chart – https://www.ageoflaodicea.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/SATAN-Chart.pdf

 

ANOTHER RESTORATION HOUR where Eli again misrepresents me and my study. I can’t seem to get him to see it. And I can’t just sit back and let this happen.

📜 Response to Eli’s May 9 Sermon

Correcting Misrepresentations and Restating My Position

After reviewing Eli’s recent sermon, I must respond—not to argue, but to defend the integrity of my study and correct repeated misrepresentations. I haven’t even finished presenting the verses in the serpent study (which is only Part 4 of 23)(4 of 6 serpent episodes, the Devil verses are covered in episodes 7-12, followed by the satan verses), yet Eli has already made public rebuttals based largely on assumptions, not the content I’ve actually shared. For some reason he is just not even looking at my study, which can’t be just ‘glanced over’. I’m sharing what is going to take 19 more weeks, but Eli has already proven me wrong???! And, I keep trying to tell you guys, and him, that what I am sharing does NOT require you to believe in devils and demons one way or the other!!!

Below is a chart comparing what Eli claims, what I’ve actually said, and my response to those claims.

🔍 Rebuttal Chart

Verse / Claim Eli’s Interpretation My Actual Position Rebuttal
Ezekiel 28 – King of Tyre Says the king is a fallen angel (Halel) and metaphor fails because Tyre wasn’t in Eden or a cherub. I haven’t even presented my Tyre episode yet. I interpret the language as poetic, not literal—just like Ezekiel 19 or 32. Eli falsely attributes things to me that I haven’t said (like the “naked” comment). This is satire and poetic judgment, not literal angelology.
Luke 9:42 / demon stories Says they prove literal demons; accuses me of trying to “metaphorize” it all. I’ve said repeatedly that my demon study isn’t finished or released. I haven’t even addressed this yet. This is a classic strawman—arguing against a position I haven’t presented. We’re still on serpent verses.
Claim: I deny spiritual evil Says I reject the spirit world and only use metaphor. I affirm the spiritual realm. I just deny the need for supernatural “devils” or “demons” to explain spiritual evil. Eli never quotes me on this—he assumes and accuses. I’ve shown that evil can be spiritual and human.
2,000 years of tradition Says my view is modern, started by Emry. I’ve documented that literal Satan doctrines—including 2SL—are modern constructs themselves. Truth isn’t measured by tradition. Jesus refuted plenty of it. Eli’s appeal to tradition is not scriptural evidence.
Eph. 6:12, Luke 10:17, Rev. 12:9, etc. Says these prove a literal devil/demons. I’ve shown these are apocalyptic, symbolic, and metaphorical—often describing political/spiritual systems. Eli offers no real exegesis—just assumes a literal being every time the word “devil” or “spirit” appears.

Verse / Claim Eli’s Interpretation My Actual Position Rebuttal
Dead Sea Scrolls & Essenes Cites the War Scroll to prove belief in real spirit beings. I don’t deny ancient belief in spirits—but belief ≠ proof. Dead Sea Scrolls reveal worldview, not doctrine. I base my views on Scripture, not the Essenes. My study on Demons and unclean spirits will be revealing. Stay tuned.
Pneuma (spirit) Says ‘pneuma’ always means literal spirit beings. I acknowledge “pneuma” means spirit, but it has many contextual uses (attitude, breath, mindset, etc.). Eli limits the word artificially and ignores verses where it clearly refers to internal disposition.
Use of Metaphor Says I “spiritualize” everything and ignore plain text. I distinguish between genre, parable, prophecy, satire, and literal teaching. Prophets used metaphor constantly. Revelation is meant to be symbolic. That’s not eisegesis—it’s exegesis.
Eisegesis accusation Says I’m forcing my views onto Scripture. My study is grounded in word studies, second witnesses, cross-referencing, and literary structure. Eli hasn’t shown where I forced a meaning—just that it disagrees with his tradition. That’s not eisegesis.

Final Thought

Eli continues to respond with assumptions, not engagement. He says I reject the spirit world. I don’t. He says I’m making up doctrine. I’m not. He says my symbolism is arbitrary. It isn’t. I show my work, define my terms, and let Scripture interpret Scripture.

If you’re going to rebut my study, rebut what I’ve actually presented, not what you assume I believe.

And to those who are listening: I haven’t even started the real “devil and satan” study yet. These are the early chapters. Let’s be fair—and honest enough—to let the whole case be heard.

🧠 A Word on 2SL and Spiritual Growth

For the record, I’m not rejecting everything 2SL has taught—I’ve benefited from it. But Two-Seedline is not the be-all, end-all of Christian faith. It’s not the monopoly on truth or the highest form of Christianity.

Yes, identity matters. Yes, the covenants are real. Yes, migration history is important. But after you’ve learned those things—what’s next? For many, the growth stops. The “meat” of the Word becomes limited to devil genetics and constant Jew-bashing. That’s not spiritual maturity—that’s a theological cul-de-sac.

2SL, as it’s commonly practiced, becomes a final destination, not a launchpad. It builds a club centered on genetic ID and Esau, but shuts the door on the deeper spiritual messages found in Scripture—messages that apply whether or not there’s a literal devil. In doing so, it limits the Holy Spirit’s ability to lead people into deeper truth.

I’m not walking away from Scripture. I’m walking deeper into it.

 

If you guys have any questions, please ask ME.  thinkoutsidethebeast@yahoo.com  OR ageoflaodicea@gmail.com